22 responses

  1. Vivian L.
    June 7, 2014

    Hi,

    I am currently an incoming Sophomore at a junior college. I know it isn’t impossible to get research experience in my situation, but I’m not quite sure to go about it. I’m currently compiling a list of professors at local schools that I plan to e-mail to ask about opportunities. Other than a resume and maybe a letter from my current boss( I work as support staff for an educational support program), do you think that it would be beneficial for me to include a rec letter from my psychology professor as well? Or any other materials, or things I just specifically say in my letter? My chances way prove to be fairly small since I am not at their school, but I figured that simply asking will not hurt.

    • Richard N. Landers
      June 7, 2014

      The best way to do this would actually be to go through your current professors entirely – ask if any of them know any of the psych professors you are targeting that would be willing to ask on your behalf. If you don’t know your current profs well enough to ask that, then I would probably instead just send an email and attach an unofficial transcript to those profs you want to work with. In that email, I would describe why you think their research lab is doing interesting work, indicating that you’d love to be involved with it and that you are happy to spend x number of hours per week working on it even though it’s at a different school. If you don’t get replies, I would then call their offices during office hours. Key to all of this is that you do your research – get familiar with what their lab does, what’s interesting about it, how many people are in their lab, etc. Your knowledge and enthusiasm to go above and beyond is what will be impressive.

    • Vivian L.
      June 13, 2014

      Thank you so much for your help and advice ! I will definitely do that.

  2. Vivian
    July 25, 2014

    Hi Richard,

    I messaged you awhile back about trying to get research experience while I am still at the community college. I spoke to one of my psychology professors who I know very well, who informed me that she does not know many people in the I/O field, but would be pleased to help me any way that she can. I am an incoming sophomore in the upcoming fall, and was wondering if it would be acceptable for me to just try to get into ANY psychology lab, or even human resources management or organizational behavior. I currently have a 4.0 and can get a letter of recommendation from my boss ( I work at the Upward Bound office at my school which is a program that helps low-income/first-generation students get into college), either counselor ( I have two counselors, both from outreach programs), or my psychology professor. I also have a letter of recommendation from a Pantry Manager from a food pantry that I volunteered at in the fall of my freshman year. Should I attach a letter of recommendation from one of my professors to boost my chances?

    Also, if I am planning to reach out to several professors at a few campuses, would you recommend that I e-mail as many as I can and deal with who replies or should I really focus on trying to get into labs that are as close to being I/O psych related as possible?

    Thank you so much for your help! Your blog has given me a wealth of extremely useful information and I can’t even explain how grateful I am for this blog!

    • Richard N. Landers
      July 25, 2014

      I/O is better, but any psych research experience is good. OBHR folks don’t usually have big labs (not many grad or undergrad RAs in most), so that will be more difficult to find, but it is basically the same thing as IO experience if you can land one. The key here is that lab experience gives you two things: 1) experience being a researcher and 2) work experience within I/O. #1 is more important than #2, especially so if you have a clear motivation (which you can explain in your personal statement) for wishing to pursue a career in IO. If you have experience in a non-IO lab and you don’t have a good reason for wanting to spend the rest of your life practicing IO, that will be a bit weird in an application packet.

      I would try emailing them in groups of 2 or 3, and waiting a few days between batches. If they don’t respond in 2-3 days, you have a good reason for having contacted someone else. Attaching a letter won’t help as much as attaching an unofficial transcript with a lot of As on it.

  3. Vivian
    July 26, 2014

    Thank you for you reply! I will definitely e-mail them in batches, and call during office hours for those I am very interested in. This may be a silly question, but I want to make sure that I am doing this correctly…. In order to research professors and what their labs are doing, is there any other way to find out other than going through the school website, looking through faculty, and simply clicking on whoever has a website? I noticed that some professors do not have any links to information about what their lab is doing so I’m not sure if I am looking in the right place.

    Also, in another post you mentioned that one of your students in your lab is conducting their own research, while volunteering in 3 other labs total. How can I go about conducting my own research and publishing it?

    Lastly, from what I’ve read, it seems that GPA, GRE scores, research experience, and letters of recommendation are the most important when trying to get into a PhD program. Is there anything else that I can do to boost my chances, or should I really focus on getting those couple of things as close to perfect as possible? Do you think that being on the executive board of a club at my school will be useful? Or being an intern at a consulting place? Thank you so much for the help!

    • Richard N. Landers
      July 26, 2014

      Website, recent publications (e.g., by searching for their name in PsycINFO), and talking to them or people in their labs are really your only options. Not everyone has a website, but their publications should be in PsycINFO. If you can’t find a website or publications, they probably aren’t actively conducting research (and won’t have a lab).

      Conducting your own research is a very difficult goal, but possible if you have a highly supportive lab advisor. I’d suggest mentioning this as a long-term goal when on the phone or meeting with potential research advisors.

      What you’ve listed are most important for PhD programs. An internship will help for Master’s programs. Leadership and club membership won’t matter to most programs unless they are I/O focused clubs and something you can talk about that way in your personal statement. As a rule, extracurriculars generally don’t count for grad school. :)

  4. Vivian
    July 27, 2014

    I will definitely use PsycINFO and just try to google professors. Also, are labs generally open from 9-5 or what are their hours like? My school schedule is roughly 9-5 Mondays- Thursdays this semester. I will likely be working on Friday and Saturday.

    Also, how difficult do you think it will be for me to get into a lab? I have a 4.0 right now. I want to take the officer position if it is unlikely for me to get into the lab as a sophomore that is also out of their school. I still want to try, but wanted to know my approximate odds before I accept the position. Thank you so much again. It feels redundant but I really want to express my gratitude for your awesome blog and quick replies!

    • Richard N. Landers
      July 27, 2014

      That varies a great deal by lab and by responsibilities. If the labs actively run participants in-person (opposed to online), it can be anywhere 8am-10pm, 7 days a week. If they mostly run online or archival research studies, you’ll work mostly from home. If there are regular lab meetings, they are usually in the middle of the day somewhere, between one and four times per month. But everywhere is different. URA scheduling is typically pretty flexible, but it depends. The only consistent bit is that they will want you to devote a bare minimum amount of your time regularly, at least 5 hours per week, sometimes 10 or 20.

      I don’t have any way to predict your odds. When students at my university ask me, I bring in most of them, at least as long as a project is open and needing assistance. But there also aren’t that many asking (maybe 5 per year). So it entirely depends on who you have access to, what their mentoring expectations are, how many students the already have, if they have work available, etc. No way to know until you try!

  5. Vivian
    August 2, 2014

    I’m very sorry that I’m posting so much on the blog, but I am trying to do as much information gathering as I can over the summer before fall starts for me. I really appreciate all of your help and advice!

    My first question is about etiquette for volunteer lab positions.. I got a reply back from a professor I contacted through e-mail, and she seemed very excited to hear from me. I followed your advice and researched heavily about what she has done, current research projects in her lab, and read all of the information available on the school website. However, she told me that for me to volunteer in the lab, she wants me to go to an open house in mid-september. The time is tentative, but currently, it is at a time that I have class and will not be able to go. I asked if I could meet with her another time, to which she said yes, but also told me that the time the open house is at will likely be the time that her lab runs. She said that it might change depending on the schedule of those in the lab, but she will not know any information until much later. I genuinely was very interested in their work and am honestly disappointed that I might not be able to participate. However, I can’t afford to just sit around and hope that the time will change. In the meantime, should I just look for another lab?

    Also, this professor told me that the lab is open for about 1.5hrs, which means that to do a 5 hour total I would have to go there at least 3 times a week. The drive is about 30 minutes with no traffic, but can be up to 1+hr if there is traffic. Is this normal, or are lab hours very unique?

    Lastly, this is more related to grad school admissions but I figured it will be easier to ask everything in one place. I’ve heard that some schools have grade inflation, and that grad admissions people are aware of this. For example, the person said that a 3.5 at Berkeley is the same as a 4.0 at Stanford because of the inflation. Or that a 3.5 at Berkeley is the same or better than a 4.0 at Davis. Is this true? On a related note, does prestige of your school/people who write your letter of recommendation hold that much weight in grad admissions?

    Thank you so much!

    • Richard N. Landers
      August 2, 2014

      No worries on posting a lot!

      An open house is an unusual thing for a lab to do, unless that lab is exceptionally popular. But if the professor seemed excited about your interest, it is probably in your best interest to skip class and go to the open house. At least, that is what I would do (and did) in such a situation. I would also recommend explaining this to the person whose class you’d miss well in advance of missing it. If you tell them you need to miss class in order to apply to a research lab, most professors would consider that a worthwhile reason and help you to catch up. And even if they won’t help you catch up, I’d probably still recommend you go, if that’s your only/best option.

      The hours, as I mentioned before, vary by institution. Did the professor say you were expected to be present 5 hours per week, and only during those 1.5 hours each day? You may be able to work partly from home, or from Skype, or any variety of other options. These would be things to explore during the “open house” if you haven’t already asked by email.

      You’re only partly talking about grade inflation. All schools have grade inflation. Decades ago, average performance was intended to be a mid-C – 75 – which means about three-quarters of the class should get Cs, about 27% Bs and Ds, and about 2.5% As and Fs. No one grades like that anymore, and schools vary in the effect of inflation (most schools grade B-heavy, some A-heavy). But you’re mostly talking about different grading standards between institutions – high grades in one school being “harder” to get than another – and that is well known in admissions. That is why standardized test scores tend to be so much more important in admissions decisions – it is the only way you can realistically compare one student to another.

      Prestige of your school matters in sort of odd ways in I/O. In psychology departments in the Ivies, where pretentiousness is a way of life, you want to have letters from other Ivies. But I/O doesn’t really deal with that. Our best schools are all public universities in the Midwest. So prestige of the school is not really related to education quality coming in. Where prestige matters is prestige within the I/O community – high program rankings, or highly published individual faculty, for example. If you have a letter from someone in a great I/O program whose name people recognize that says you’re awesome, that’s going to have a much greater impact than a letter from a random professor somewhere. But those kinds of letters are pretty rare, in general.

  6. Vivian L.
    August 2, 2014

    Thank you for the reply! I think that her lab is very popular, but I’m not sure if the open house is for the grad school. I really wouldn’t mind skipping class just once, however, my school has very strict attendance policies. I will speak to my professor once school is closer to beginning. My only concern is that she did tell me that the open house time is the same time that the lab will be open. So it is likely that if I’m not able to attend the open house then I willot beble to attend the lab meetings. However, I will wait until I found out the certain times for then lab before I shoot it down because I’d really love to be involved in what they do. In the meantime, should I look for another lab?

    Also, how can I find out how good the program is? Or how well known the professors are? Ive looked at SIOP rankings for grad schools, but didn’t see any of the California programs on it at all. Do you happen to know of Claremont has a good program? Donaldson specifically seems to be very well published. I’m considering Claremont Graduate University as one of the grad schools I’d like to apply to, but was wondering if Positive Organizational Behavior is a good PhD to receive. It’s very interesting but I already know I want to work in industry after getting my PhD so I want to make sure it’s a worthwhile degree. They also have a regular OB program as well. I’d prefer to stay in California for grad school but I know that will be difficult for I/O given that I/O originated in the Midwest. I looked at the SIOP list of grad schools, and noticed that Cornell and harvared both have programs. But none of them even placed on SIOP rankings. The SIOP ranking of grad schools is a bit old though. Is there another way to find out how good a program is? I’d really love to seriously narrow down what grad schools I’d like to apply to, and right now I know I want to specialize in OB/leadership. Specializing in Positive OB would also be really interesting.

    Now, about the grades… Is there a way I can find out how grades from each school varies? I’d still do my absolute best no matter where I go but it would be quite soothing to know this information. Also, do you think my odds are better at trying every professor at a university about 30mins-1hr away from actually offers I/O related fields or it’s better to email professors no matter how far away they are to volunteer online? This will open my opportunities a lot more if this is an option, given that I am in California. Thank you for your help!!

    • Richard N. Landers
      August 3, 2014

      Ahh, it’s a general open house for visitors. I would still make every effort to go, if I were you. In fact, sacrificing your class performance and grades for research is something you’ll experience a lot in grad school. :) But sure, keep looking. As long as they haven’t committed to you, you haven’t committed to them.

      Rankings are a tricky business. Just like college rankings, they are only meaningful if you value the dimensions that are being ranked. But for grad school, your personal relationships with faculty are much more important (and can make or break a career), which aren’t captured by rankings. You will need to decide what’s important to you (e.g., reputation among psychology departments like captured by US News and World Report, quality of student experience as captured by one survey, research productivity as captured by another) and then seek out schools with those characteristics. I will give you a few tips though.

      “Positive psych” in general is still considered a bit faddish. There’s no telling if it will stick around or not, and there’s a fairly large contingent in academia (maybe less so in industry) that doesn’t take it seriously. That may interest or it may worry you – that is up to you to decide, and by necessity a managed career risk.

      “How well known the professors are” is not as straightforward as you might think. One of the reasons I recommend in so many comments in the PhD vs Master’s article that you talk to current grads is that reputation is not usually national. It is usually local. So when you’re looking for a job, the reputation of your advisor and your school with a particular community is what gets you a job. For example, if you attended George Mason, that school is highly connected in the Washington DC area (because that is where it’s located). But if you tried to get a job in Missouri, they might have never even heard of Mason, and that reputation does nothing for you.

      You should be applying to at least a dozen schools, across the country, targeting those that have mean GRE scores around yours and have faculty with interests that match yours. If you want a strong IO degree, staying in California is going to be difficult. There just aren’t many schools there unless you go into a business school, which brings many disadvantages and a few advantages. OB (and HR) and IO are not the same, although there are some commonalities, so I’d be careful on that front. Unlike psych programs, business schools are almost universally in the trade of training future business school faculty. They don’t generally train people to be practitioners.

      I’m not sure what you mean by grades. Once you are in a PhD program, no one will look at your transcript ever again. Grades only matter insofar as you are gaining skills that will help you in your career and grades, to some degree, symbolize that you’ve learned something (hopefully). Only your college grades will factor into admissions decisions (but usually not that strongly, as long as you are over 3.5ish). GRE scores are going to be much more critical with research experience right behind that. After you’re in grad school, no one will ever again look at (or care about) your undergrad transcript again, and only rarely (if ever) your graduate transcript.

      Online research experience is very uncommon these days. I would try to stay local.

  7. Vivian L.
    August 3, 2014

    I will listen to your advice and go to the open house :) Do labs accept volunteers year round or do they usually pick up people at the beginning or end of a semester?

    I know that the rankings aren’t everything, but I don’t have many people who know a lot about I/O other than a subreddit devoted to I/O on reddit.com and you! And of course, SIOP. I think once I narrow my list down more of schools that interest me, I will ask for opinions on the school.

    The bit about reputation being relative to the location of the school makes a lot of sense. This was one of my large concerns because my long term goal is to live in San Francisco. I’m afraid that if I go to the school in the midwest, but try to come back to California, it will be much more difficult. Do you think this will happen? I noticed that the BLS stat of where I/O psychologists work had a decent number in CA (http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes193032.htm) so I wanted to go to a school that will eventually get me there. However, I am very willing to move around for grad school, and for a few years during my early employment.

    I will avoid the business schools then, because I really want to go the applied route. For the grades part, I was referring to how schools have different grading standards between institutions. However, this seems to not matter now since I know that I really need to focus on performing well on the GRE.

    I am honestly very happy to hear that prestige of my school isn’t everything in I/O.

    • Richard N. Landers
      August 4, 2014

      That varies by lab too. We usually bring people on when we start new projects that require them or at the beginning of semesters, but some do so more regularly.

      Once you are out for a few years, you have experience and potentially a portfolio. At that point, as long as you’re doing a good job, you can move pretty much anywhere that takes I/Os. Grad school connections matter most for your first job.

      I don’t know that there are many IO jobs in San Francisco though, in general. IO is not very common on the west coast, in general. The page you listed doesn’t show SF as an IO area, and I haven’t personally heard of many jobs out there. Google has IOs, but it’s a pretty small team. Maybe 5-10 people? If location of employment is your first concern, I don’t know that I’d recommend IO. We’re tied pretty strongly to a handful of metro areas.

  8. Vivian L.
    August 5, 2014

    I guess I can’t be picky about the location of my first one or two jobs then. I’ve been looking at some of the companies that are pretty much I/O exclusive and a lot of them have locations in D.C. or NYC, which I definitely wouldn’t mind living in. I also noticed a lot of them in Chicago and Pittsburgh which wouldn’t be too bad. Do you think that over the next few years there will be more companies who expand into the west? There were not that many I/O specific firms who had offices in California, although there were some.

    Location isn’t my first concern, although it’s definitely a factor to consider. All of my family is in California and I don’t want to be far away in the long run. Although, I don’t mind being away while I’m in grad school or even during my first job. I will just have to do a very good job at my first place of employment so I can have a profile good enough to land me a rare spot in California..

    • Richard N. Landers
      August 5, 2014

      I doubt it, at least for the immediate future. It was something I noticed when I was trying to identify grad schools a decade ago, and nothing has really changed. You can always start your own private consulting firm, though!

  9. Vivian L.
    August 16, 2014

    Hello Richard,

    I feel so bad that the entire comments page is filled with my plethora of questions, and I really appreciate you answering everything! I know that you’ve said that whether or not you have I/O experience is not a big deal because I/O folks will understand that it is hard to find an I/O lab. I honestly can’t afford to go to any of the private schools, or go to a public university outside of California, which are usually the ones that offer good I/O programs. I know that UC Irvine has an Organizational Leadership program, and UC Berkeley is listed under the SIOP list of schools that offer IO but it’s just for Psychology. Should I go to these schools as opposed to UC Los Angeles or UC Davis, which isn’t listed at all in the SIOP page?

    Also, I know that it is difficult to predict what all grad schools will do in this situation, but what if I apply to a PhD program with no I/O experience? Will that be a huge disadvantage compared to those who do have I/O experience? I will likely also have an honors thesis, poster presentation/my own research, and at least 2 years of research experience in a few labs. I would consider myself fairly personable, very responsible, and always eager to help, so hopefully I will get good letters of rec also. I can’t predict my GRE score or GPA but I know I plan to do as much as I can to get both as close to perfect as I can.

    Lastly.. I noticed that your timeline prepares students to get into their program right out of undergrad. This is honestly perfect for me, and it is my goal. However, how difficult is it to get into a good PhD program right out of undergrad?

    Again, I can not thank you enough for answering all of my questions and being extremely helpful! Have a great day!

    • Richard N. Landers
      August 16, 2014

      I’m not sure what you mean by “afford” if you want to attend a PhD program. PhD programs are generally free to the student. Arrangements usually involve working as a teaching assistant in exchange for free tuition plus a salary (right now, generally in the neighborhood of $12K – $20K per year – which isn’t a lot, but certainly enough to live on if you don’t need to pay tuition). If a PhD program does not fund its students, I would recommend you avoid it.

      A lack of IO experience will be a disadvantage but not a critical one as long as you have high GREs and lab experience somewhere with strong letters of recommendation. That is unfortunately as prescriptive as I can get. It all comes down to a case-by-case basis – and as I’ve mentioned before, sometimes you are qualified for a graduate program and can’t get a spot due to reasons outside of your control. Luck (and timing) end up being a substantial component, which is why you need to apply broadly. A great applicant will probably end up with about a 50% hit rate for the graduate schools they apply to. A not-great applicant will often only have 1, maybe 2 choices if they are lucky, when applying to a dozen or more.

      It is more difficult to wait to go into a PhD program. I would recommend going straight from undergrad unless you have a very good reason (e.g., if you aren’t sure you want a PhD). If you know you want a PhD, you shouldn’t wait to apply.

  10. Vivian L.
    August 16, 2014

    Hi Richard,

    Thank you for the quick reply! For not being able to afford a private school or public non CA school, I was referring to my undergrad. I don’t qualify for financial aid and will need to pay for undergrad on my own, so I’m really trying to be frugal. This is why I decided to go to a community college for 2 years, and then transfer. I was beginning to consider just taking out loans and such to fund going to a school where getting into an I/O lab is an option, but it seems that I/O people are reasonable about not having I/O experience so long as I can prove myself in other ways. I really want to do as much as I can to get into a good program, but if it isn’t critical to get I/O experience then I will avoid getting myself into massive debt unnecessarily.

    I will definitely be avoiding anywhere that does not fund its students. Thank goodness I have researched about I/O on your site and other places so I will make sure I find a school that will fund me!

    Spectacular! It’s very good to hear that it is better to go straight from undergrad. I was nervous because I’ve seen the stats of people who took a break while working in a lab or something else, and wasn’t sure how common that was. Anyways, I will still try my best because the competition is still very stiff.

  11. Sean VanGenderen
    August 19, 2014

    Hi Richard,
    Thanks for putting this information together. It’s been extremely helpful! I wanted to know what you thought about my situation. At my college in our senior year, we have to create our own research proposal, and follow through with our own research, conduct a study within availability and a small budget (usually recruiting college students for our studies) Finish the technical paper, and do a poster presentation on our study and findings. While the research isn’t lead by a professor (as in we are not research assistants), we are advised throughout the research process and have to have approval of each step by a professor. Do you think that most graduate schools would see this as valid research experience? Thanks for your help.
    -Sean

    • Richard N. Landers
      August 19, 2014

      That would definitely be seen as research experience, but it is somewhat less impressive than the type of research I describe here. If that’s the only research experience you have, you’ll be at a disadvantage to other students with more traditional experience – plus you won’t have the type of rec letters that are most impressive.

Leave a Reply

 

 

 

Back to top
mobile desktop