Grad School: Should I Get a Ph.D. or Master’s in I/O Psychology?
Grad School Series: Applying to Graduate School in Industrial/Organizational Psychology
Starting Sophomore Year: Should I get a Ph.D. or Master’s? | How to Get Research Experience
Starting Junior Year: Preparing for the GRE | Getting Recommendations
Starting Senior Year: Where to Apply for Grad School | Value of Traditional vs. Online Degrees
Interviews/Visits: Preparing for Interviews | Going to Interviews
In Graduate School: What to Expect First Year
So you want to go to graduate school in industrial/organizational (I/O) psychology? Lots of decisions, not much direction. I bet I can help!
While my undergraduate students are lucky to be at a school with I/O psychologists, many students interested in I/O psychology aren’t at schools with people they can talk to. I/O psychology is still fairly uncommon in the grand scheme of psychologists; there are around 7,000 members of SIOP, the dominant professional organization of I/O, compared to the 150,000 in the American Psychological Association. As a result, many schools simply don’t have faculty with expertise in this area, leading many promising graduate students to apply elsewhere. That’s great from the perspective of I/O psychologists – lots of jobs – but not so great for grad-students-to-be or the field as a whole.
As a faculty member at ODU with a small army of undergraduate research assistants, I often find myself answering the same questions over and over again about graduate school. So why not share this advice with everyone?
This week, I’d like to talk about a Big Decision: Should I get a Master’s or Ph.D. in I/O Psychology?
This falls under two categories in my grad school timeline above: Information Gathering and Career. This is a decision you should try to make during your sophomore year of college, and the decision should be driven by what kind of career you ultimately want.
Careers in I/O psychology are a little different than in most fields. Because we are so small (in the grand scheme of things), there is less public advertisement of positions than typical in most fields. You probably won’t find a position for an “I/O psychologist” on Monster.com, for example. Many positions that I/O psychologists end up in are also not called “I/O psychologist.” As the “science behind human resources,” I/O psychologists end up in a wide variety of career paths. This is because the skill set developed as a I/O psychologist in training prepares you for virtually any job involving “people at work,” including consultants, professors, assessors, directors, and CEOs. For a few examples, see these resources from SIOP.
So when you think about the difference between Master’s and Ph.D.-level training, you’re not comparing specific careers – rather, you are considering different approaches to training. In a Master’s program, you are training to become an I/O professional. An I/O professional will consider how to apply the principles of I/O psychology to solve specific organizational problems. In a Ph.D. program, you are training to become an I/O scholar. An I/O scholar will do the same tasks as the I/O professional, but will also use those experiences to advance our general understanding of I/O through research.
Thus, I/O professionals (Master’s) are trained to help organizations. I/O scholars (Ph.D.’s) are trained to advance organizational science, helping organizations along the way. Master’s students are trained to practice I/O psychology. Ph.D. students are trained to conduct research in I/O psychology.
In practice, this means that an I/O psychology Ph.D. will generally have more responsibility than an I/O with a Master’s. If you are in an organization with lots of I/O psychologists, the Ph.D.’s will generally be making “the big decisions,” while the I/Os with Master’s will aid with implementation or conduct background research. Since many modern organizational problems are at the frontiers of our current understanding of organizations, a person with Master’s level training will generally not be prepared to conduct research within the organization to help answer these questions. Of course, there are many I/O’s with Master’s that start their own consulting agencies or work as the only I/O psychologist in an organization – but this is a matter of experience and personal drive.
And of course, if you want to be a professor, the only suitable degree is a Ph.D.
All I/O training, regardless of level, centers around (or rather, should center around) the scientist-practitioner model. This is one of the key differences between an MBA in Human Resources and a degree in I/O Psychology. While the MBA will make an informed decision, usually based on reasoning from case studies and their own experience as managers (often anecdotal evidence or recommendations from more experienced businesspeople), an I/O will reference the current scholarly research literature to make this same judgment from scientific evidence. While an MBA simply wants to solve a problem, an I/O wants to understand that problem based on our scientific understanding of human behavior and then solve it.
If you are having a hard time making a decision, assume you’ll go for a Ph.D. The preparation you’ll do over the next three years for a Ph.D. will be sufficient for a Master’s too, but the preparation needed for a Master’s won’t be enough for a Ph.D. Better safe than sorry!
Please also note that the guidelines given here are based on “typical” programs – there are certainly scholarship-focused Master’s programs and practitioner-focused Ph.D. programs, but the majority of them follow the model here.
Once you have a degree in mind, you should tailor your efforts to prepare to apply to programs accordingly. Stay tuned for future features on applying to grad school here on NeoAcademic, which will help you make more decisions along this path.
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Richard,
Great post. I just finished grad school for my masters degree focused in Organizational Leadership and was looking to pursue my doctorates in I/O Psych. I am currently doing coaching for different focuses (http://www.shaunmayfield.com/coaching.html), and beginning to get into business and church consulting. My goals as a consultant is to help organizations with conflict resolution/management, team development and help coach executives as well as the traditional business development consulting.
What are some of your thoughts regarding different schools offering I/O Psych degrees?
Thanks again.
I’ll be writing a full post on this at some point, but here is some advice based on your question.
First, frame your decision as “which faculty” rather than “which program” or “which school.” Even if you’re in the strongest program around, if you have a poor advisor, you’ll have a poor experience. Generally, “better programs” tend to have better faculty, but the correlation isn’t all that high, IMHO.
Second, along those lines, since doctoral studies also center more around the idea of scholarship and research, the match between your interests and those of your advisor are going to be most critical. Even if you have a poor advisor, if you’re doing work you’re passionate about, you’ll still have a good experience.
Third, make sure they have a rigorous statistics training, and take as many of those classes as you can. If you have an interest in leadership, HLM is critical. Stats and research methods are the most critical skill sets that distinguish high quality I/O PhDs.
Great post, Richard! Students interested in a rigorous I/O Master’s program should check out our program at Radford University (http://www.radford.edu/content/chbs/home/psychology/programs/industrial-organizational.html).
Interested students can contact me directly if they have any questions about our program (cgorman6@radford.edu).
ag
I am and undergraduate student interested in the field and found this article very helpful. I am currently a business student and was wondering if there would be an advantage to obtaining a minor in business before i move on to a graduate program.
@Andrew – Do you mean you’re a business student considering a psychology minor? If you’re thinking a Master’s, it probably doesn’t matter much, but that will differ by program. If you’re thinking PhD, then it will be critical to have psych background to get into a Psych-department I/O program. Less so if you’re applying to business school I/O programs.
But keep in mind that many programs require you take the Psych GRE Subject Test. If you don’t have broad Psych undergrad experience, that will probably be rather difficult.
I am currently majoring in I/O psychology. I am wondering if it would be beneficial for me to obtain a minor in business administration before applying for a Ph.D program. It will add an extra semester to my undergraduate studies but I am willing to do it if it will make a difference in getting accepted.
If you’re applying into programs in psychology departments, I doubt it. If you’re thinking about business schools, then it might. You should note though that doctoral applications are typically due at the end of Fall semester, with invites to interview or visit around February. If taking an extra semester throws you off a full-academic-year schedule, I don’t think it would be worth it (at least, unless you aren’t also trying to raise your GPA).
Richard,
As an undergraduate junior at an institution that does not offer much information on I/O Psychology, I am extremely pleased with this article. It gave me way more insight than I ever intended on receiving. I now feel more confident in applying to Clemson’s I/O Psychology program. To clarify, when you stated “If you are having a hard time making a decision, assume you’ll go for a Ph.D. ” were you meaning one may skip receiving their MBA and go straightforward to Ph.D in I/O?
Keep up the amazing work!
Tatiana, I’m glad you found it valuable. By that statement, I mean that preparing yourself to apply to a PhD program (getting research experience, taking difficult classes, etc) will qualify you to apply to a Master’s program too, but the reverse is not necessarily true – or in other words, it’s easier to get into a Master’s program, so if you don’t know which you want, prepping as if you’re applying for a PhD gives you the option to pursue either later. The reverse is not necessarily true.
As an undergraduate with an extreme interest in I/O psychology but in a college setting without the appropriate faculty to help me with my interest, I found this article really helpful. Since the field is small, I’ve found it difficult to find supplements to aid my curiosity about it. Richard, could you suggest any books that may be of interest in helping my understand the field a bit more? The only things I have found have been textbooks. Thanks!
Honestly, textbooks are probably the best you’ll get – they give you a broad survey of the specialty areas in the field, which will help you narrow down your specific interest areas (if you have one). I recommend the Landy & Conte text.
I have become really interested in the field of industrial and organization psychology. If I were to get a master’s degree in this field, how difficult is to to get a job and what kind of salary can I expect to make? Are online degrees in this field a good way to get a masters degree, or would it be better to go the normal route and attend a university?
@Jeff – Employment is good for I/Os right now (you can find some outlook data here). There is projected 29% growth in the next decade, which is quite strong. You can find up-to-date salary information in these surveys conducted by SIOP. You can also find a comparison of online vs. traditional institutional outcomes in this article, which was just published this month.
Dear Professor,
Thank you for your insightful article about I/O Psychology. I am a graduate from a top college, and I’m looking to continue my studies in an I/O Ph.D. program. Despite having a reasonable major GPA, my overall GPA is just barely 3.0. I do have years of research experience in undergraduate years in great labs and now am working as a research assistant with a couple of co-authorships in peer-reviewed publications. Do you think my low GPA will affect my chances at graduate school admissions enough to warrant going for a masters first? This has been worrying me for quite some time, and I appreciate any advice.
@Jane – It really depends upon the specific programs to which you’re applying. If they have specific GPA cut-offs (pretty common), your application may not even be considered by a live person. So I think, given your background, it would certainly be wise to apply to Master’s programs simultaneously to PhD programs. With both, you definitely want to address the low overall GPA head-on in your personal statement – a number that low needs an explanation.
Can you still become a licensed Psychologist if you get a PhD in I/O Psychology??
@Gabby – Assuming you’re talking about APA (USA) licensing, yes you can, if you go to a program that is a hybrid clinical/I-O program. There are not many though. Most I/O psychologists are not licensed because there is no advantage to being licensed – it is typically more hassle than it is worth. The only reason you really need a license is to legally practical clinical psychology in whatever state you want to practice in, which is not needed to do anything I/O psychologists are typically trained to do (i.e. it is not needed or particularly valuable for organizational consulting).
Hi there – thank you for the informative article! I am currently considering making a career change, and would like some input from you if you have the time. I have a background in behavior analysis, with an undergraduate psychology degree from Western Michigan University. Most of my research and practical experience as an undergraduate involved work on studies involving children and schools. After receiving my undergraduate degree, I decided to pursue School Psychology (University of Oregon). I finished my masters degree in this area a couple of years ago, and have been working in a school system since then. I am finding that I love certain aspects of my job: working in a system and finding ways to improve it (through staff training, creating systems/procedures to increase efficiency) and the use of data to make decisions about the type of instruction students need and ways to improve that instruction if a student is not making progress. Other aspects have been trying. I do not enjoy working in an environment that is so “democratic” in nature. The principals technically are the head of the organization, but a lot of power is given to teachers/staff to make decisions based on their own values. This is not always in the best interest of the children or the organization. I can make suggestions to a teacher based on evidence-based procedures (e.g., how to change environment to help improve a child’s behavior), but there is no reason that he/she needs to listen to me. Also, in general, data isn’t valued (gut instincts and experience are valued), and there is not adequate funding for training/professional development around building these skills, even when the district states that they value making data-based decisions. I also do not enjoy the mountain of paperwork and special education procedure that goes along with my job. I am providing this level of detail, because in the research I have done thus far, it appears that the field of I/O psychology might be a good option for me to pursue, given my strengths and the things I do enjoy about working in a system or organization. I realize there would be major differences between the business world and schools, but they are effectively both organizations and some overarching concepts apply to both.
What advice would you have for me in testing the water in the field of I/O (how to find job shadowing opportunities, books or articles to read on I/O psychology, etc.)? Do you think that I would need to go the route of getting another masters degree, or given that there is some overlap (stats, research methods) between my school psychology masters coursework and an I/O masters, would I want to see about going straight into a Ph.D. program? I am fairly sure I would want to pursue a Ph.D., given the greater range of opportunities I would have with that degree. I am a perfectionist and I am very driven once I decide to pursue a course of action, but I do not want to make the same mistake I did with School Psychology, and decide to make a career change without adequate justification or information. I have spent some time looking at siop.org.
Thank you so much for any input or advice you can provide!
@Rachel – I’m not sure the reasons you want to pursue a degree in I/O are necessarily based on a realistic picture of I/O practice. Many of the things you describe (low budgets, people trusting guts over data, excessive paperwork, etc) are still present in a consulting environment. We fight the “no really, data will help” battle all the time. Paperwork just shifts to recording billable hours – recording all of your activities in great detail to accurately charge clients for your time. So I am not sure you’d really be avoiding the things you seem to dislike about it.
The best resources for “what is I/O really like” that I can send you to are all on siop.org, so you’ve probably already seen them. Jobs in I/O vary a lot in both titles and responsibilities (from data analyst to CEO) so it’s hard to pin down exactly what an I/O job is or involves. The common element is a focus on using psychology to improve human resources and human resources processes. If you’re interested in improving general organizational functioning (e.g. strategy, customer relations), we don’t deal with these areas at all.
Ph.D. programs in I/O generally bring in people straight from undergraduate, and stats/methods tend to be different at every school. In a sense, schools wants to remold you in their own stats image, and stats varies a great deal. At ODU, for example, if you didn’t get a little SEM, HLM and IRT before getting here, you’d probably need to retake the whole stats sequence.
So you might have some luck with applying some of your previous stats/methods credits, but you might not – it will be on a school-by-school basis. The bigger issue will be that you have adequate research experience – if you didn’t get at least a pub or two through your previous Master’s program, it will be difficult to apply that experience to a PhD training environment.
Process-wise, I will tell you that most post-Master’s students that apply to ODU just go ahead and apply – after acceptance, we work out what needs to be retaken. FWIW, in the past, the students that we thought had sufficient stats have told us later that they wish they’d retaken the stats courses anyway, just so that they could have a similar frame of reference to their cohorts.
Hello- I am a sophomore majoring in Human Resource Management, and I just recently read about I/O Psychology and am somewhat interested in it. I am however having problems finding out what would be the best courses to take before going on to graduate school. Would a bachelors in HR while minoring in psychology be sufficient to get into most grad programs? (That’s going for a masters, not a PhD.)
@Heather – That degree combination would be fine as long as you had sufficient experience in a research lab (Psychology, HRM, or OB).
Dear Mr Landers,
Thank you for the great post! It sheds inside some light on how things are going.
I am a master’s student in Organizational Psychology and HRM in my second and last year, with a BA in Psychology. I would like to further pursue a Phd in I/O Psychology, but am currently not sure where my odds stand. I have a good GPA (or so I think, based on my country’s grade classification ..). I haven’t taken any of the abilities tests yes, GRE, but I’m sure I will do just fine. The problem is with the research and work experience. I’ve conducted research projects on my own but did not assist any professor or haven’t been assistant in a laboratory. Also, I haven’t been employed in the field until now, so real I don’t have organizational experience ( as an employee, the projects which I conducted involved organizational applications). I really enjoy conducting research and I would like to develop my career path in this direction.
My thought is – how strong an application do I hold or can I be accepted by a good program only based on what I have done so far? Or should I better seek to gain laboratory or work experience before applying? Basically, I’m thinking that I would get admitted but analyzing some of the CV’s of current Phd students at various universities lead me to conclude that they have done more than this. The second reason for which I am asking is that I see most programs offer few places and are very competitive. Also, not affording to attend a program self-funded, I’m hoping to get an assistantship or a similar funding opportunity. How far off do you think my expectations are?
Thank you!
@Anne – The lack of formal research experience is going to be a negative for you unless you have published something from your own research. The only PhD programs that will provide funding are going to be research-intensive and highly selective (selecting between 1 and 5 people out of 75 to 300 applicants, depending upon the program). Organizational experience will generally not make your application more competitive in these programs, because working in an organization doesn’t generally teach you anything about research, which is the focus of these programs. I would not recommend applying to or attending a PhD program that does not provide funding to most of its students.
If you won’t be producing a publishable, empirical thesis from your Master’s program, such programs will also likely disregard your Master’s (except as far as your GPA anyway), requiring you to complete a second Master’s or at a minimum repeating all Master’s-level work. Also, in many of these programs, doing “just fine” on the GRE often isn’t enough – you’ll need to be in the top 5% or better (sometimes much better).
In any case, what all this means is that for a realistic chance at the kind of program you’re targeting, you need, at a minimum:
1) Some practical research experience with a faculty member and a letter of recommendation from that faculty member
-or-
2) Your own published first-author work
Dear Mr. Landers
I am currently pursuing my Bachelors in Psychology from India and I’ve been very interested in pursuing a graduate degree in this field from the US. Due to the very limited exposure to this field here, I had the basic idea however.
Thank You very much for this article. It has not only helped me understand the difference in the PhD and Masters programs, but also the difference between MBA and Masters, something that I had been trying to understand for quite some time now.
I am preparing for GRE and I have a decent score in college as well. My only concern is that I do not have any research background. Will I still be able to get admission in a top college??
Thank You.
@Trisha – It depends on your goals. If you are seeking a PhD, yes, that will prevent you for getting into top programs. But if you are seeking a terminal Masters degree, you can get into highly rated Masters programs without research experience.
Dear Mr. Landers,
I am looking for some good advise. I am considering a PhD degree in IO Psychology and I’d like to know if you recommend the program at Grand Canyon University. They offer a PhD in General Psychology with emphasis in IO Psychology. Sounds like a PhD in IO Psychology but I am not sure if in fact these two are the same.
I have a bachelors in Psychology and a MS in Organizational Leadership. I currently work as an assistant professor for a city university in NY.
I would appreciate if you could provide any type of recommendation
Thank you
Jorge
Hi Mr. Landers,
I am stuck between applying for a Masters in I/O psychology and a Ph.D. The school I am applying to has both options (Wayne State University) and I would like to get a masters, but I feel inclined that I must go for a PhD because of today’s competitive market. Am I right in this thinking? I would like to make around 90,000 a year and be a I/O psychologist or whatever you want to call it in the job field. I realize that the I/O psychology PhD program is a 6 year program at my school, while the masters is 2 years. I want to know if the extra 4 years will be worth the time lost in the workforce. This is a very stressful decision that will impact me the rest of my life, and I would like to know what is the best decision. I wouldn’t mind teaching or going into research, but since I am in my last year of undergrad majoring in Psychology and minoring in Management and Organizational Behavior taking classes such as research methods and senior thesis, I feel as if I will get a better idea of research throughout my last year. I do not have much experience with research, so I do not want to jump into something that I am not sure about, but I want to help people in the human resources aspect, but also not lose my job to someone with a PhD. Let me know if this is something I should be concerned about, and if not, I can apply for a masters walking out confidently thinking that I can get a job, because there is a bright outlook for this job position. Thank YOU!!!!
Maan
@Jorge – I am not familiar with Grand Canyon University, so I can’t really comment on that. However, a “PhD in General Psychology with emphasis in IO Psychology” implies a couple of things to me. One, you are most likely going to be completing more “general psychology” electives (sometimes called distribution requirements) than those in more “pure” I-O programs. Two, they probably don’t have a large number of dedicated I-O faculty. But those are guesses; you should check out their website to verify both of these. If you can’t find information on the website to answer these questions, contact the doctoral programs director. If you can’t get a straight answer from the website or the director, it is not likely a good program.
@Maan – Honestly, a Master’s vs PhD give you very different career prospects. The types of jobs that those with Master’s go into are not going to be the same as those with PhDs. But I’m confident you’d walk out the doors with a job with either degree from Wayne State. Given what I know about Wayne State, your chances of getting into their PhD program without research experience are probably near-zero. I don’t know about their Master’s program. It is very unlikely you would start at $90K or higher, regardless of degree. Based on the 2009 SIOP salary survey (most recent available), median starting salary with a Master’s is $55K, and the median with a PhD is $75K.
Hi Richard,
Thank you for the useful information. However, I am taking a Research Methods class this semester which leads into a Senior Thesis class for next semester. If you are unsure of these class titles, this semester we choose our topic of research and prepare a research proposal. Then next semester is where we collect all the data. This will give me research experience, but I am not sure if PhD is the way to go. Thank you.
Maan
@Maan – For comparison, one of the students in my lab hoping for admission into a PhD program next year is currently completing an independent research project while volunteering 30+ hours per week across 2 I/O research labs and 1 outside I/O. He will have 3 letters of recommendations from faculty with whom he has worked as a researcher. He has attended weekly lab meetings with my for nearly 2 years. For a high-tier research PhD program, that is just one student with whom you are competing among a hundred or more applicants for 3-4 total spots at each school. Given his history, I suspect he will be admitted to about half of the programs to which he applies. I think you are underestimating your competition.
As for whether or not a PhD is appropriate for you, I can’t tell you much more than what I’ve written here. Working in a research lab with a faculty advisor and graduate student supervising you is precisely the experience that would help you answer that question (which is why many faculty, myself included, don’t generally take students without such experience).
Dear Mr. Landers,
Thank you so much for the valuable comment. I think you were right on the money. I spoke to the doctored admissions officer and she mentioned that the degree is indeed in general psychology and it has 5 distinctive electives related to I/O Psychology (I/O Psych, Human resources, Systems, Leadership, Program Review etc.) The other 15 classes are from the general psych format.
If I may, I came across with Keiser University program. This school seems to have a true I/O Psychology program but I am not familiar with the reputation of the university and if it will be a good institution to obtain such a high degree.
Considering my background, in your experience, would it matter where do I get my PhD from. As I mentioned earlier, I have a bachelors in Psychology and a MS in Organizational Leadership ending with an empirical base research thesis dissertation. I currently work as an assistant professor tenure track for a city university in NY.
Thank you again
Jorge
Thank you for your time Mr. Landers.
@Jorge – I’m honestly a little confused by your situation. Typically, the PhD is considered the entry-level degree for a tenure-track professorships, so if you’ve already got that, and that position is your end-goal, I’m not sure why you need a PhD. If this is about a salary increase and your goal is teaching where you are forever, then it probably does not matter much where you go. If this is about future career prospects and your goal is research, consulting, or upward/lateral movement within academia, then you want the best program you can get into.
Dear Mr. Landers, thank you for your reply.
The reason I am looking for a PhD is to further my career as an educator. I have been working as a surgical assistant for 17 years and I became an educator about six years ago. My position as an assisting professor tenure-track is at the associates level where the highest education required is a masters degree as well as publications, which I am still working on.
My goal indeed, is to teach at a graduate level in a field related to my graduate degree and eventually move out of the associates level. My problem so far is identify the right school that offer the programs I need under the conditions I can afford at this present time. I am 52 and have a family to support, therefore the program must be online with no GRE requirements. I know I am asking too much. Keiser University asks for a Masters degree in lieu of the GREs. However, I am not sure if obtaining a degree at this school will be worth enough to accomplish my goal.
Thank you for your time again and again,
Jorge
@Jorge – You still seem to be in an atypical position in comparison to the T-T positions I’m familiar with. In I/O, you generally need a PhD to be on the T-T at all (progression from Assistant Professor to Associate Professor to full Professor, which generally takes at least 12 years post-PhD). Assuming you want to stay where you are, I think you should speak to another I/O (or at least another psychologist) in your department; I can’t speak to the culture and technical requirements of your institution. If you want to go somewhere else, you will almost certainly need a PhD – at least 5 years to get the degree (sometimes longer) and generally 7 more years to earn tenure.
Hello Rich,
First of all, thank you for your highly informative and factually rich article. Your candid and honest advice has clearly been valued by those who have read this article, and has personally provided for me an adequate amount of information in addition to what I have seen on the SIOP website to formulate my own opinions on the field.
Now, I would like some candid and honest advice of my own. I am a fresh graduate from a major Big Ten university (Indiana – go hoosiers!). I demonstrated academic poise and discipline by finishing my undergrad in just three years, with a BA in Spanish, a Certificate in Business Operations, and minors in Linguistics and Latino Studies. Since graduation, I have launched a career in Account Management, but have noticed a keen affinity for structural and organizational affairs. I have assisted execs in developing initiatives in a newly-public company to add structure to a program that is meant to cover intraoffice diversity issues. I have long-term interests in the area of Corporate Social Responsibility, and am looking at MS programs in I/O psychology to get a formalized credential on my resume before I consider applying for MBA programs.
Essentially, I am curious about a few things. 1) Will I be set back by not having an undergrad background in Psychology? 2) Will my current position (Account Management) be of hinderance in the application process as it is not the most comprehensive, analytical position? (Even though I have proven myself to work outside of the job description in a much more I/O psych flavored way?)
I would appreciate your prompt response, although it appears that you have many questions to answer — consider that a compliment! You’re the pro!
1) For an MS, I’m honestly not sure. If you were applying to PhD programs, zero background in psychology would definitely be a problem. I’d normally recommend taking a few undergraduate classes in Psychology at the nearest university, volunteering in a research lab, and completing the Psych GRE. In your case, I’d recommend contacting the I/O area director (or MS program director) at the schools you are considering and ask their opinion.
2) Generally, no one cares about outside work experience as far as admissions are concerned.
As a side note, it’s very unusual to think about an MS in I/O as credentialing along the way to an MBA; an I/O MS is a more rigorous degree than an MBA (I’d think of it as a step backwards, or at best, sideways).
Hello again Sir,
I came across a course on the SIOP website – MA in Human Resource and Industrial Relations, that is being offered by some universities.
I just wanted to know if there is any difference between this course and I/O Psychology, in terms of course as well as future prospects.
Thank You
I think by “course”, you mean “program.” And no – they’re not the same. HRIR is going to be in a business school, and it is somewhere between an MS/MA in I/O and an MBA in HR. The job opportunities may be similar, but it depends on the school.
Thanks a lot for your help Mr. Landers.
I was wondering what your take on psy D approach. I’m currently looking at a IO masters and a psy D after wards in Org psych.
I’ve been told that a psy d. is more applying info like a masters.
Could could please shed some light on the difference?
Thanks and great article
PsyD in I/O is very uncommon. Most likely, it focuses on clinical with an I/O and counseling emphasis. You are correct that it will be more applied; however, you won’t get the same sort of training (or honestly, respect) as an I/O PhD will.
Dr. Landers,
Thank you for a very informative and wonderful post.
I am recently gaining a lot of interest in the Psych I/O field. I come from a very diverse background. I have a Bachelor’s degree in Health Sciences and most credits in a Masters in Social Policy Admin/ Social Work degree (have not finished final internship and don’t intend to finish it either)..I have taken some psych classes during my graduate social work coursework.
I want to apply to PhD programs in I/O Psych. Do you think that would be a realistic option given my background? I have a strong undergrad GPA 3.7 and a not-so-good graduate GPA 3.0.
But I do have 2 published papers in the field of mental health.
Would you give me some insight on whether I should even apply? Also, are you in a position to recommend schools I would be able to apply to given my background.
Thanks in advance for your time.
The graduate GPA will hurt you pretty badly. An axiom in I/O psych is “the best predictor of future performance is past performance,” so that will translate into poor predicted PhD performance for you. The two papers do make your case a little unusual though, so it’s hard to predict. I’d say if you have a really good reason for why your GPA is low and explain that well in admissions essays, you might still have a reasonable shot at decent PhD programs. So I’d recommend applying. But your chances may not be good (unless those are both top-tier pubs with you as first author). I’d recommend you apply to a school that shares your interests – I wrote an article on this topic: http://neoacademic.com/2011/08/03/grad-school-where-should-i-apply/
Thanks so much for the information and the link to the other article. Does a decent GRE score have the potential to cover up for the bad grad school grades? (315 on the revised GRE)
It’ll really depend department-to-department – it could, but it’s hard to say. But I will say that if you don’t address the cause of the low GPA in your written materials, it will be a strong mark against you anywhere.
Dr. Landers,
My MA is in Psychology with a 3.44 GPA. However, for my graduate program I changed disciplines and have completed classes for my MA in Anthropolgy/Archaeology with a 3.56 GPA. I am currently working on my archaeological thesis, and have been working in the field of archaeology for the past year. During that time I have reevaluated my future career goals and have decided to return to my initial interest in I/O Psychology. I am an Air Force veteran and my GRE scores were 746 Q and a perfect 800 V. However, I was not involved in any research projects during my undergraduate, and the only research I have been involved in grad school is my own thesis. I am applying to five I/O Ph.D programs for next fall, all ranked highly on SIOP. What are my chances of being accepted to one of these programs, and what could I do to increase those chances? Should I accept that my less-than 4.0 GPA and my lack of research experience will keep me from being accepted and simply apply to MA programs, and try again for a Ph.D program when I have an I/O MA? Or are admissions likely to take into account my ability to complete graduate studies even though it is in a different field, and my better-than-average GRE scores? Any advice on the correct course of action for my situation would be appreciated!
Thank you,
Heather
First of all, there’s no ambiguous “admissions” group in small high-quality programs – the ones that make the decisions are the current I/O faculty at those institutions. Remember, you’re not applying to the school – you’re applying for a 5+ year mentoring relationship with a specific person or group of people.
The lack of research experience in psychology will definitely be a negative for your application, unless you have published a few things in your current field, but it sounds like you haven’t. Most PhD programs at the highest tiers of institution don’t consider previous Master’s work unless it is VERY similar to what they want you to have completed at the Master’s level, so my suspicion is that completing a distinct I/O Master’s is probably a waste of time if you’re definitely on the PhD track. However, I think your situation is sufficiently unique that you should probably contact the faculty you’re thinking of working with at those institutions and ask their opinion.
I’m also not sure what you mean by “ranked highly”. If you’re interested in top 10, for comparison, I went to a top-10 program , coming out of undergrad with a 3.9 GPA, 99th percentile GRE scores, and an in press publication. I was still in the middle of the pack of those admitted. You might want to set your sights slightly lower, where your high GRE scores are more likely to lead faculty to overlook the lack of psych research experience (but this will vary from professor to professor). I would personally be very apprehensive unless you had an extremely convincing personal statement that explained the switch very clearly.
Dr. Landers,
I am considering getting an undergraduate in Psychology, and I would like to go on to receive a PhD in I-O Psychology in the future. However, I am worried about the difficulties of getting a steady job in the field. I realize that earlier you informed Jeff that the employment for I-O Psychologists is supposed to increase 29% in the next decade, but since I-O Psychology is a small specialty, won’t this dramatic growth only amount to about 800 new jobs? Those numbers worry me a bit. I was also recently told that I-O Psychologists were among the careers with the highest current unemployment (around 10.4%). Is this true?
-Thanks for the help,
Pat
More technically, employment for “I/O Psychologist” as a job title is expected to increase 29%, but this is 1500 new jobs (see http://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/19-3032.00). But I/O Psychologists work with many other job titles as well (e.g. VP of Human Resources, Director of Training, etc), so that is not exhaustive. I expect the number to be higher.
Where did you see 10.4%? Can you cite a source? The unemployment rate for people with PhDs hovers around 1-2% (even during this last recession), so that seems very high to me. We’ve never failed to place a PhD student in a job, and the same was true for the graduate school I attended. Although I suspect that is less true for online institutions.
The 10.4% number makes more sense if you’re talking about an undergrad “I/O psychology” degree. I wouldn’t recommend an undergrad psych degree alone (or any liberal arts degree) in terms of career prospects without a graduate degree to follow.
Oh. Quite. I had not considered that.
As far as the unemployment rate goes, I double checked my sources and I believe you are correct. In the articles I read, I-O Psychologist was being placed among other undergraduate degrees, they just never explicitly stated that they were not counting PhD graduates. My apologies. I believe my entire question was one small misunderstanding.
Dear Dr. Landers.
I have been looking into numerous programs as they relate to Human resources, organizational leadership, behaviors in the workplace and on productivity, etc. I have come across a few programs-the ED.d in Organizational Leadership. I am drawn to these programs and the I/O doctoral programsPhD.
Can you tell me the difference in these two types of programs, for example the training received and would you they both prepare you for the same type of practical work. I would assume that with the PhD there is the option to be in academia, and that option would not be with the ED.d.
The organizational leadership on some I/o programs is also a concentration within those studies and the EDd in many programs has most of the core couse work from the pyschology department.
I am really confused as to the difference between these programs other than the fact that one is a Phd and one is an EdD.
Can you p lease provide some clarification..
Thanks.
They are very different programs. An EdD is going to be more practice-oriented, but focused more narrowly than an I/O degree. An EdD will prepare you for leadership positions generally in higher education – VP of a community college, head of distance education, etc. There may be some focus on applied analytics, but less dedicated statistics and research methods training than you are likely to get in an I/O program. I don’t think many EdDs get jobs in industry, but I imagine some do. My suspicion would actually be that it’s more common for an EdD to become a faculty member than work in industry, but that’s a guess. An I/O degree, regardless of MS or PhD level, is much broader – you’ll get training across all areas of human resources and organizational behavior. If you take I/O courses within an EdD program, I’m guessing they are primarily focused on leadership/teams/org behavior, which is only a portion of an I/O degree. But again, this will differ from program to program – comparing any particular pair of programs, PhD vs EdD, either could be more rigorous/respected/likely to get you a job.
Hi Dr. Landers,
I am currently enrolled in an M.A. I/O Psychology program. In the future, I have interests in becoming involved with developing start-up companies. I am curious about the role/need for an I/O Psychologist in the entrepreneurial world. Will there be value for I/O Psychologists in assisting business development for newborn companies? What would be the biggest challenges and how would these types of positions differ in comparison to those with established corporations?
Thank you.
That’s a pretty broad question. I/O provides a toolset for managing human resources, which I think is valuable in virtually any organization. However, many of our statistical analyses rely on large sample sizes (i.e. large organizations), so I think the biggest challenge would be adapting those analyses for use in small organizations. For example, if you’re hiring 30 people from a pool of 100, I have many tools to help you do that – but if you’re hiring 1 person from 5, I have some advice for you, but much less.
To be honest, I don’t think that most small organizations (less than 50 employees) need a dedicated in-house I/O psychologist – they would be much better off outsourcing to an I/O consultancy. If you want to work with startups, I’d suggest joining (or creating) a company dedicated to working with startups. But I don’t think I/Os in such contexts are very common, at least right now.
Hi Dr. Landers,
I appreciate your comments and information they are very helpful! I am a junior pursuing a degree in psychology with a minor in business. I am looking into receiving my MA in I/O-hopefully in Europe. Are you familiar with any I/O masters programs there? I plan to come back to the states to work, but would it be difficult to find a job here because I have been studying abroad? Any general challenges I should be aware of if I decide to do this?
I/O is not precisely I/O in Europe – most European schools fall under the label “work psychology” and tend to focus more on the “O” side of I/O. That’s not universally true through. If you’re interested in more of the “I” side (which I’d say is where most of the jobs are), you’re probably best off staying stateside.
Also, one of the biggest advantages to going to a respected program is that they will have connections to local (or at least regional) consulting firms where their graduate students tend to go. If you go to a European school, all of your connections will be European, and you’ll be best off getting a job in Europe (in fact, probably in the country of your school).
Finally, Master’s and Doctorate degrees in Europe are generally not “American-style degrees” – Master’s degrees for example typically are paired with undergrad degrees and often only involve 1 year of study. Even PhD study is typically quite different – more of an apprenticeship to a professor than a formal program of study. That’s not going to be universally true for all schools in Europe, but it does mean you’d need to do a LOT more research on individual programs to see how similar to US programs they are, if you want to eventually come back. If you want to stay in Europe, the differences matter less.
IO psychology is a generally horrendous field to go into. I’m finishing my masters and virtually no fellow students over the two years in my program or others I’ve met at the masters level find jobs that are even mildly related to the field. Expect exceedingly low pay near 30K with a ceiling below 50 after ten years. The only successful consultants went to highly competitive schools for PhDs. Let me reiterate this as clear as possible, DO NOT GET A MASTERS DEGREE IN IO PSYCHOLOGY. You will most likely regret the decision unless your goal is low pay working in HR doing mind numbing tasks. You will not hear this from professors but unless you score very highly on the gre, your odds of gaining acceptance to a good phd program are very low. Here is the remedy: get a degree in engineering and go into the oil and gas industry. There you will find respect, great compensation and a great job outlook. Do not fall pray to anyone who tells you that you are a “professional” at the masters level in io, you are not and will not be treated as such. I wish someone told me this two years ago before taking on the debt of a masters in IO because its almost as worthless as a masters in clinical. Do not do it, you will thank yourself later.
While I appreciate that you’ve had a bad experience, I don’t think it’s the norm. What you’re saying doesn’t match up at all with the salary surveys conducted by SIOP or what I hear from students with Master’s themselves. What you describe actually sounds like the result of going to a Master’s program with a poor reputation (e.g. online or not specifically I/O focused). Like most business-related fields, I/Os is a people-business, and if the program you go to doesn’t have connections with industry or a good reputation, you’re not likely to get a good job. I/O also fights for respect in general – if you go somewhere without an I/O PhD that will supervise you, you will have to fight that battle. Most people don’t even know what I/O is – why would they respect it? But if there are already I/Os there, they will have already fought that fight.
To also continually spew this misinformation that most accepted phd students score in the top 5% is completely incorrect. The students accepted to almost any phd program average just under 1300 on the old gre scale. It is public information on their program pages, you can’t make numbers up. They are psychology students, not engineers, the scores are simply not that high, and you need to actually look up the info before you tell a woman who scored in the 99th percentile that she won’t get in because any psych program would roll out a red carpet for her.
I was referring to quality programs. Usually departmental websites will give you a mean GRE score for their entire psychology program – that doesn’t take into account inter-program differences. I am getting my numbers from our own applicant and acceptance pool. We fairly rarely accept anyone with much below 1300 – but that is not necessarily true in other areas. I/O tends to have higher expectations for math skills than other areas. Also, if you think that “top 5%” is more stringent than “99th percentile”, I think that serves as pretty strong evidence that your quant training was not great.
I didn’t imply that the top 5 percent is more stringent than the 99th percentile. I was stating that most phd programs outside the top 5 accept students who score around 1300 on the old scale. There are also no a plethora of “respected” masters level programs that receive any of that respect outside of the realm of IO. Check the top google keyword searches for masters IO psychology jobs and you’ll see that it isn’t easily accomplished. Big IO firms don’t hire at the masters level primarily and if you actually want to do IO work on a salaried basis that’s about your only option. You “fairly rarely” accept anyone under a 1300? Got it. You’re out of touch with reality and giving people unrealistic expectations about the job outlook for IO masters and their odds of gained acceptance to a phd program. Inter-program differences are greatest between Neuro and everything else. Clinically generally has even greater applicant numbers than IO and higher gre scores.
Why would you Google I/O jobs? I’ll reiterate – if the place you went didn’t direct you toward several potential employers, then it was not a good place to go. If you made a bad decision about where to go, just own it and move on. And I’ll agree in that case – if you can’t get into one of the better-reputed Master’s programs, you probably shouldn’t go at all. But that is true for any field, including engineering. And if you want a little career advice – the kind of bizarre arrogance you’re displaying here is a big turnoff for employers. Respect is not automatic, for those with Master’s degrees or PhDs. It must be earned no matter what, and it appears you expected it to be automatic.
Dr. Landers,
I’m considering pursuing a career in I/O Psychology. However, my undergraduate degree was in accounting and international business. I have no academic experience in psychology other than an Intro to Psychology class my sophomore year.
Assuming I am accepted to a master’s program in I/O Psychology and complete a master’s thesis, would that provide enough groundwork to apply to a doctoral program?
You’ve responded to other posts mentioning the importance of going to a university with a good reputation. Would all of the Top 20 MA/MS programs listed on the SIOP website be considered quality schools? I know that might be a dumb question, but if there are only 40 schools to choose from, the top 20 doesn’t mean much. Also, some of the schools listed in the top 20 MA/MS don’t offer a doctoral program. Would it be a disadvantage coming from one of these schools when applying for a doctoral program at a different school after graduating?
That’s a complicated question. If you know 100% that you want to pursue a PhD, you should try for a PhD immediately. It is generally more difficult to get into a PhD program if you already have a Master’s degree. And even with a Master’s degree, you may still need a full program (5-7 years) at the PhD level afterward, which means the Master’s just delays you career-wise. Most programs that have both the Master’s and PhD level don’t expect Master’s students to progress into their PhD program – if you wanted a PhD, it is assumed you would have applied there in the first place. There are exceptions; for example, at ODU, we occasionally accept people into our Master’s program if they are reasonably strong candidates but not strong enough to get into the PhD program (or we’ve run out of money for assistantships), and we want to give them a sort of “trial run”. But as a result, our I/O Master’s program is very small – maybe 1 student every 4 or 5 years, but they take classes alongside the doctoral students and most ultimately end up in the PhD program formally later. But that’s something that must be arranged beforehand with a particular faculty member.
Rankings are tricky, because they are not always based on something you would personally find meaningful. If you’re looking at rankings based upon reputation from industry, then that sort of list would be helpful. If you’re looking at rankings based upon how happy the grad students are, that will be less helpful, given your goals. There is also some variance in how current those lists are, so I’d recommend checking publication date too.
An extra problem for you is the empirical thesis dimension. The training in most Master’s programs, high quality or otherwise, is explicitly directed at getting you prepared to work in a Master’s type role. Programs vary in the degree to which they would prepare you to enter a PhD program – statistics training is generally weaker, as is research methods. Even if you do a thesis, it may not be empirical (e.g. case study research, or some types of program evaluation). This is something you’d need to investigate about each program.
To be honest, you are not in a good position given your goals. I have heard of people going back to get a second Bachelor’s in Psychology in that situation, although that’s probably a bit extreme. If I were in your shoes, I would probably identify a particular faculty member that I was interested in working with and then contact them via phone to explain my situation and ask if they’d be interested in my volunteering to work in their lab for a year, 20+ hours per week, with the intention of applying to their PhD program if everything went well. If they were open to it, I’d then work my butt off to be an absolutely amazing research assistant over the next year. Even that strategy is not surefire – but at worst, you’d have some research experience to talk about in your applications elsewhere.
Dr. Landers
While filling out my applications, I realized there are some universities offering Masters in HR. These universities have also been listed on the official siop website.
http://www.siop.org/gtp/GtpLookup.asp
I would like to know how exactly the programs in HR are different from I/O, especially in terms of career prospects.
Thank you
To be honest, this is really a case-by-case sort of question. Some HR Master’s programs will be more like an MBA with an HR emphasis, others will be a blend of traditional MBA/HRM courses with I/O, and others will be mostly I/O. I’d say it is probably easier to get a job with an I/O background than an MBA, but it depends a lot on the school you attend either way. I’d recommend checking the programs to see what their curriculum looks like (mostly MBA courses or mostly I/O-type courses). If you see a lot of overlap with the traditional MBA program, it is probably more like an MBA.
Thank you Sir.
Also, is there any reliable source to know about which schools are good, especially in terms of placements. Being an international student, most of what I know is through the internet. So a reliable source about universities would be really helpful.
There’s really no single source, since it depends on what you are looking for in a program. Graduate education is much more complex than undergraduate. If you are interested in job placement, some programs self-report on their websites where their graduates tend to work. Here is an example from ODU: http://sci.odu.edu/psychology/io/alumni.shtml
Dr. Landers,
You’ve stated that you do not recommend attending programs that do not fund their students, and that “getting into the best program you can” is important for careers that involve research or consulting. What about applied work in organizational development or human resources management? Does it matter much then?
What about a school like Louisiana Tech…they do not provide tuition waivers, but they provide a 15k/year stipend for their PhD students to work 1/2 time as research assistants, and the TOTAL cost of the program comes out to be between 15k-17k (about $2,300 + fees per 12 credit semester). This seems like a pretty good deal to me, and with an acceptance rate of around 50% (only 12 applicants on average according to SIOP), and fairly low GRE and GPA cutoffs, it seems like a good choice for applicants who are lacking in some piece(s) of their applications.
However, having so few applicants and the inability to provide tuition waivers leads me to believe that this school is less “prestigious” than others…will this hurt a Louisiana Tech grad’s job prospects?
That is a tough question. RAs are generally considered better than TAs because you are paid for the research work that you are likely to be doing anyway. A lack of tuition waiver is unusual; tuition waivers are usually part of an RA/TA package, and that’s actually the first school I’ve heard of that doesn’t include one. But that doesn’t necessarily speak to the quality of the program.
I suppose the trade-off is that you can only get a PhD in a certain field once. Once you are “branded”, so to speak, that is your PhD granting institution forever. In academia, it could work against you to have a degree from a relatively unknown place. However, in industry, that will be less true. Once you have a few years of work experience post-PhD, it honestly doesn’t matter a whole lot which school you went to except in terms of training quality (higher quality programs tend to have better training especially in statistics) and alumni network (which, to be honest, is very convenient at times). I suppose I’d recommend asking their graduate/PhD programs director what their placement rates look like – I suspect most students end up going applied, but you want to get more information on where and approximate salaries. You might also consider emailing some of their graduate students and asking how they feel about their chances on the job market.
Again, it’s important to remember that while I can give general recommendations, nothing will be better than getting first-hand accounts from current students from the particular programs you are interested in.
Thanks!
Dr.Landers,
I am a US Army Soldier, currently on deployment to Afghanistan. I recently completed my BA in Psychology through a regionally accredited online university. I am debating whether a Master’s in I/O Psychology would be the right choice for me. Due to my current line of work, I am unable to relocate in order to take advantage of a graduate school program at a physical university facility, so I am limited to those schools which have the program available online. One of the more reputable online programs available appears to be Colorado State University – it is, at least, a recognizable State run institution rather than a no-name, for-profit, or private university. Another option might be Southern New Hampshire University (private, non-profit, regionally accredited).
I have read the information available here and on the SIOP website regarding the dim light that online degree holders are often cast in by employers compared to our traditionally educated counterparts. My question to you is as follows: do you believe that the circumstances of my education (i.e. obtaining it while in the service) would mitigate to some degree the negative impression that often follows online educations?
Also, by the time my contract is up, I will have completed eight years of honorable service in the Army with three of those years as a Sergeant or better. Would a company interested in hiring IO degree holders view me as having had management experience based on this? I can assure you that an Army SGT is expected to deal with a variety of challenges that would probably cause even the most stalwart of corporate team leaders to pause for composure, but I do not know if this type of management/leadership experience is something that the IO / HR world recognizes as being transferable to a corporate setting.
Any insights you may have to offer on these issues will be greatly appreciated.
Lucas
That is a very tricky question. One set of the primary advantages to an applied graduate program are the connections you gain by being a part of one. You just don’t generally get those in online I/O programs – at least right now. That may not be true for SNHU (I didn’t even know they had an I/O program), but I don’t know for sure.
Your question also isn’t really the right one to ask – that being in the service would mitigate the negative impression. Even students in low quality brick-and-mortar I/O master’s programs have a hard time finding jobs – the issue there is that the training often isn’t as high quality, or as focused, or as intense. For comparison, our master’s degree training requires a full-time commitment. Many of our students at the master’s level spend 60-80 hours per week going to class, working on research, etc. More during crunch time. We also only have 5-10 students at the master’s level (PhD track or otherwise) at any given time. You just don’t get that kind of intensive training and one-on-one attention in any online program that I know of (the same is true in diploma-mill master’s programs, of which there is a growing number). As a result, you come out with poorer harder-to-employ training.
I will add that Colorado State may be the lone exception to all of this. They have top-notch faculty (e.g. Kurt Kraiger, Jan Cleveland), so I would expect the training and alumni network to be top-notch too. But I don’t know anyone personally that has completed that program, so that’s a bit of a guess.
As for your military experience, it is very transportable to I/O, but I think the value placed on it varies a lot by employer. While I’ve personally seen the discipline, level-headedness, and problem solving that veterans often bring with them to I/O, not all see that value. More of concern to me in your response, however, is that you are comparing team leadership with what you might be doing with an I/O master’s. I don’t think that is typically what I/O training would prepare you for – that sounds more like an MBA. I/O is going to have you doing things like creating surveys to assess employee engagement, meeting with HR to discuss current retention strategies, etc. – not quite the same.
Hi Dr. Landers,
My post may not be as specific because I am just learning about this field (I/O P).
Your article was highly informative. I graduated with a B.S. in Physiology and Neurobiology. (In high school, I began to take some college courses in Psychology.) I ended up taking a few years off post college. During this time, I worked in Human Resources. HR sparked my interest and now I am considering to get a degree to become a coach, consultant, or some type of person who admonishes in the corporate world. I have been doing some research, and I found a program that is a DBA specializing in I/O Psychology. Now, I read through some of the aforementioned questions and replies, but I did notice any question about DBAs. Could you explain if a DBA is well respected and/or accepted in the business world or would it be preferable to get a MS or Ph.D in I/O if I were interested in HR Coaching/Consultant or to be part of the organizational development team for a corp?
Thanks,
J
I have never even heard of a DBA. Having said that, I am not in a business school, so it might be perfectly fine. However, in most business schools, a doctorate is a research-focused degree, and you generally only want one if you plan to be an academic researcher. If you want to do executive coaching – or anything applied, for that matter – you are probably more interested in an I/O PhD, I/O MS, or MBA.
Thank you for this information as it was very helpful. I am wondering if you have any advice on someone trying to re-enter the field of I/O Psychology. I have an MBA in Strategic Management and would love to get back into the field after being absent for over 17 years (I used to be an HR consultant) I have been working in management (project and operations) and recently I miss the Field both academically as well as practically. Any advice/guidance you can offer?
It would be very challenging to move into a PhD program, if that’s your goal. But if you wanted to try anyway, I’d recommend volunteering 10-20 hours per week at a local I/O psychology lab to get some recent research experience. With a year or two doing that, plus good GRE scores (start prepping now), you probably have a good chance. If you’re interested in a MS/MA, I’d recommend just applying – your extensive applied experience will be seen very positively, as long as your GREs are also strong.
Dr. Landers,
Thank for the article with the much needed clarity in the differences between Masters in Business studies and I/O psychology. This triggered to share a concern.
I have done my bachelors in Engineering and I am a corporate trainer in the behavioral domain with experience in designing and delivering training programs for the employees of a firm in India. I have developed an interest for observing workplace behavior and how it can affect productivity. Given my experience and inclination for better understanding training effectiveness among employees and to contribute for better understanding of workplace attitude, I have considered pursuing MS in I/O and organizational behavior.
I have worked with a social organization which has given me the exposure to understand what the measure of effectiveness of training programs would be in an open organization. Also, i am exploring the dimension of personnel selection too.
I would want to know what the potential of areas of research in the field of I/O?
I also would want to if my interests are aligned with what the programs have to offer?
I am planning to apply for next fall for some of the top universities in the US. I have not majored in Psychology in my academics, would this affect my admission? One thing i have noticed is that universities ask for knowledge in Statistics.
Can you guide me in filling this void in my qualificatiion.
Thank you.
Training effectiveness is certainly within the boundaries of I/O. I have created a model of training effectiveness myself as part of my research program. So I think you will find overlap there, although certainly not all I/O jobs involve training evaluation. If you want to pursue training evaluation specifically, I’d recommend identifying programs that specialize in training.
For MS degrees, your lack of psych background may not hurt you, but I honestly don’t know. It would be almost impossible to get into PhD programs – I would never accept anyone without a psych degree or (instead) at least 3-4 years of lab experience in a psychology lab. I imagine MS programs care less, but I don’t bring on MS students, so I don’t have an answer for you. Many programs do expect a basic grasp of psychometric measurement (reliability, validity, constructs, etc) and basic statistics (from means up through at least analysis of variance/ANOVA). If you don’t have any background in statistics at all, I suspect you’d find most I/O graduate programs very difficult.
Dr. Landers,
Thank you for addressing my conerns. I did get a chance to read and get insights about your research on training evaluation.
In continuation with what i had asked earlier about the lack of introduction to Statistics, i wanted to know if it would help if i took up introductory course in Statistics online? Then, would a mere mention about my knowledge do or would i be required to produce transcripts about an institution certifying me in Basic Statistics.?
And, Sir, You had suggested identifying progrmas that specialize in training, What would be some of he best sources to help me explore that field?
On the other hand,my interests lie both in training effectiveness and in personnel selection, I wanted to increase my knowledge base with a Masters in I/O psychology as I believe it would introduce me to the different aspects of I/O and i would eventually choose courses that i want to specialize in. Would you say this train of thought is advisable?
Thank you
Informal statistical training probably won’t help you – you would need to take a course somewhere.
To determine the specialization, you should look at the list of faculty for each institution you are interested in and read up on their recent publications and stated interests. If they are interested in training, they’ll say it there. And I would not trust a program that does not list its faculty online.
As to your thinking with the Master’s, it sounds like you might be thinking about a PhD after the Master’s. I will say that it generally a bit easier to get into a PhD program without getting a Master’s first. So if you already know you will want to take classes past the Master’s, you should be aiming for PhD programs.
Dr. Landers,
Thank you for your very helpful information regarding I/O psychology as a career field.
I’m currently a junior at a small, well-respected liberal arts school pursuing an undergraduate degree in pyschology. Up until this past summer I was interested in speech pathology but after doing an internship with SLP I switched my interest to I/O. Since then I have secured an HR internship which I am currently participating in and have tried to grab a couple of relevant courses such as Research Methods. My biggest concern is that because of the liberal arts emphasis of the school, the opportunities to conduct research are extremely limited and generally reserved for students in the natural sciences. I could try and find a research-based internship for next semester but by that point I will all ready be a senior and won’t be far into an internship by the time I have to submit my master’s applications; meaning I won’t have recommendations from research supervisors, etc. Do some master’s programs weigh research experience more heavily than others? How can I find information about this? Lastly, I’m curious whether you think my HR internship is a waste of time considering that the internship is very business-centric. T
Thank You.
If you only want a Master’s degree, research experience is not as vital. In fact, your HR internship is probably ideal for getting into a Master’s program, because it will give you plenty of opportunity in your various personal statements to explain what you see as attractive about HR, but why you specifically want to go into I/O.
It’s only if you want to go into a PhD program that research experience becomes absolutely vital. To that end, students in SLACs (small liberal arts colleges) seeking research experience do a few things to get around this problem: 1) drive to a nearby university to participate, 2) work in a research lab remotely, i.e. online, 3) participate in a summer REU program in psychology. I’d strongly recommend REU, although most of their deadlines are probably around now or already due. You can get more info through this portal: http://www.nsf.gov/crssprgm/reu/list_result.cfm?unitid=5054
Other schools sometimes have REU programs outside of NSF, but it would require some googling to find them.
Dear Mr Landers,
I’m so thankful I find your articles and advice here. I’m an undergrad student majoring in Business in Vietnam and therefore I’m not familiar with the system and get quite confused. Please help me make clear a few things first:
1) The PhD program in this context is a 2-3 year or a full 5-8 year? Do 5-8 year program require much research experience?
2) Why a master degree will hurt my prospect of getting into a PhD program? A second balchelor in Psy is more desirable than a M.A in General Psy (or anything psy, even I.O if that’s available) to get in a full 5-8 yr program?
My plan is to go to a MA prog (in Psy or in something business with extra courses in general Psy) then apply to PhD with or without some work experience in the middle.
I get a faint notion from all the advice above that in this case, it’s best to get a second Balchelor in Psy then apply straight to PhD program. But I’m interested in getting a MA (or MS), just to be on the professional/applied side of things for a while before going for PhD. This may sound time consuming but as I’m not a Psy major, it’s either I study for another BA or MA before a PhD program.
Also, truth be told, my GPA so far is poor (7.6 out of 10, about 3.0/4.0 correspondingly) while I only have 2 semester left so I’m hoping to start again. what would be the best course of action for me?
Eventually my goal is to work in consultancies and do research but I also want a career that entails travelling. Do you have to be physically limited to a lab/country doing research?
I hope to receive your advice and enlightenment and thank you so much.
1) All PhD programs in I/O in the US are designed as either 5-year or 6-year programs. People that come in with a Master’s degree usually want to skip the first few years. This is not always possible and may be undesirable to the university.
2) It is only potentially harmful if you want to use your Master’s hours to count toward your Ph.D. This is what most Master’s students want. Otherwise, you often need to earn a second Master’s degree in the new program. If you are willing to complete a second Master’s if the institution wants you to do so, this will help you and is something you should mention in your personal statement.
Without a Bachelor’s in Psychology, you may be disadvantaged. Especially with a low GPA and/or low GRE scores. Given your relatively low GPA, and given your goal of a Ph.D., I’d probably recommend enrolling in a Psychology Master’s program, ensuring you get a 4.0 and a publication or two, and then applying to Ph.D. programs with a statement that you’re willing to get a second Master’s. If you can get a Bachelor’s in Psychology without going through a complete program (i.e. if you can do it within a year or two), a second Bachelor’s in Psychology would also be sufficient and possibly preferable. Also, you can sometimes apply your previous credits towards a new degree or second major in ways that aren’t immediately obvious; I’d recommend you talk to advising. A business major and psychology minor would also be a reasonable path for many schools, and you may have time to complete a psych minor right now, depending on your institution’s requirements.
There are certainly jobs in I/O consulting that involve travel, if that’s something you want. International travel is uncommon, though.
Dr. Landers,
I graduated with a bachelors in music and am interested in eventually getting a PhD in I/O psychology. I am now in my early 30s and want to go back to school for psychology. Do you think that going back to school to get a bachelors degree in psychology would be a crazy idea at my age? Would that raise a red flag to graduate schools?
I don’t think it’s “crazy” exactly. It is fairly uncommon. But as long as you get a 4.0 GPA, have high GRE scores, great recommendation letters, and lab experience (see the other pages in my grad school series here), it doesn’t really matter when you go.
Since you are more advanced, though, you might consider taking a practice GRE test now to get an estimate of your what your score will be – practice/prep will increase it a bit, but not by a whole lot. So you might want to get a sense of which schools you would be qualified to get into and think about if that will meet your career goals before investing that many years.
What are your thoughts or opinions on PsyD in I/O psychology?
If your sole goal is to be a practicing therapist, PsyD programs are generally sufficient for that. If you might ever change your mind and want to conduct research (e.g. to identify better treatments for your patients than are currently permitted/supported, and to contribute to your field professionally at a larger scale), then most are not. You simply don’t get the right kind of training in most of them.
I say most because there are more research-oriented PsyDs and less research-oriented PsyDs. The more research-oriented ones are generally better in terms of broad preparation (although you could not be an academic, you would more prepared to contribute to the field), but there are not as many research-oriented programs as practice-focused programs. ODU (where I am) actually used to have a research-oriented PsyD, in a consortium with neighboring universities (including William and Mary and UVA, I believe). But that entire degree program is being replaced with a PhD (this year, in fact).
Non-research-oriented PsyDs are purely practical degrees – like an MBA. It doesn’t prepare you for anything other than the precise career path it is designed to prepare you for, and this specific path varies school to school.
Hi Dr.Landers,
I just happened to read and research about schools offerign programs in I/O and OB and I didnt quite understand if there really is a difference between the two? Or is it true that OB is essentially a subset of I/O? I also happen to come across via thw web that I/O is a dying field ans that all focus has shifted to Ob which was quite a shocker to me. What would be your take on this?
Also, what are the subtle differences between OB and OD (Organizational development), if any?
Thank you,
Abhinaya
I/O and OB are quite different, in terms of training. OB PhD training will be so that you can become an academic – there is not much purpose to an OB PhD otherwise. I/O has career paths with both the Master’s and PhD. OB is not a subset of I/O – it’s the other way around, if anything. OB corresponds roughly to the “O” side of I/O, while HR corresponds roughly to the “I” side. However, both OB and HR cover some topics that I/O does not (like benefits and succession planning, in HR). I don’t think I/O is dying – otherwise, I don’t think we’d have a 100% placement rate for jobs here. However, I/O Master’s programs are popping up that don’t offer very rigorous training – you might be seeing some disgruntled I/Os that were in such programs unable to find a job (which is not surprising to me at all). As for OB vs OD, I am not very familiar with OD as a field – I was always under the impression it was one part of OB (the active change management aspect). But I have not looked into it very deeply.
I’m currently considering a masters in I/O. I’m very concerned about the cost of attendance and I’m more so concerned with the career prospects. I don’t want to go through the trouble of getting the degree only to obtain a job in HR making less than $40,000. I’m very concerned about what the starting salary would be. I’m also concerned that many of the I/O related jobs would require a PhD. I definitely don’t want to do a doctorate.
I’m also concerned about getting into a good master’s program from a high ranking program. I graduated in a B.S in Psychology in December 2012. I graduated Cum Laude, completed special honors courses and completed an honors thesis, and I co-authored a research study with a professor in the psychology department. I don’t know if this is a good enough profile to gain admission into a top school.
I would only recommend attending a Master’s-granting institution that has strong connections to industry and a track record of sending their students into I/O jobs. Such jobs generally pay over $60K. Honors, a thesis, and involvement on a study should be plenty for entry into a high quality Master’s program as long as your GREs are strong. Although I suspect there will probably be questions about why you finished off schedule (i.e. not in May) and what you’ve been doing in the interim and why.
How much of a risk do you feel it is to pursue a masters in I/O?
It depends what you mean by “risk.” Having a Master’s (and not a PhD) means that you will always have the non-terminal degree of your field. As a result, as long as you’re working within another organization (i.e. not as an independent consultant), others will always be more qualified than you. If you’re happy following orders (and making less money as a consequence), and don’t care that you’ll never be in charge, a Master’s is fine – it’s really a matter of career choice and what you imagine yourself doing on a day-to-day basis for your career.
Mr. Landers,
How competitive is I/O psychology vs Clinical?
By competitive, I assume you mean entry into PhD programs? I/O is less competitive than clinical. But then again, everything is less competitive than clinical. I remember in my graduate program, there was a lot of discussion about how our clinical PhD program rejected people with perfect GRE scores. I often find myself suggesting choosing a field other than clinical (and sometimes other than psychology) to undergrads that want clinical – usually they just want to “help people” in a clinical setting, That can be accomplished with a Master’s degree in Human Services, Counseling, Social Work, etc – a clinical PhD is generally not the best path to that sort of career.
Sorry Dr. Landers…also, why do the I/O programs only admit a few students each year? If the profession is so small, why not increase the amount of students?
Thanks!
Undergrad and graduate work are very different, especially at the PhD level. In graduate work, you have a one-on-one relationship with your advisor, and the depth of that relationship varies by program, from “pretty intense” to “constant attention”. I probably personally spend 2-3 hours per week supervising each advisee individually when they are NOT working on their thesis or dissertation – so I top out around 5-ish students (which ends up being 8-15 hours per week dedicated supervision). During thesis and dissertation time, the time commitment increases dramatically. The only way to get more I/O PhD students while keeping student-faculty ratios about the same is to increase the size of I/O faculty programs, and there are many outside constraints to that problem (state-provided funding for tenure-track lines, for example).
Dr. Landers,
As an I/O psychologist, do you work more for the company’s well being or the employee’s well being? For example, are they expected to be involved in helping a company increase profits or maybe helping a displaced worker find a position in a company that fits his/her abilities. 50/50 maybe? Also, do I/O psychologists work in the medical field? Where do you see the field 10 years from now?
Thanks!
I/O psychologists do not really deal with employee well-being as its own end. “Helping a displaced worker find a position” is not I/O – it is work counseling. If you want to do that, you should get a degree in counseling. We are focused on helping the organization reach its goals; however, that often (perhaps even usually) means helping employees along the way. For example, in working with an organization, we might discover that their team structure is dysfunctional and causing a lot of stress/strain for employes which limits the productivity of those teams, so we engage in work redesign to fix the problem – this helps the organization by helping the employees.
I/O does do work in medical contexts (e.g. I saw a piece on figuring out the best way to keep doctors up-to-date in terms of training), but it is not a focal area.
In 10 years, I think I/O will be much bigger – we are in the midst of a growth period, and I see no signs of stopping. One of the big challenges that we’re seeing now is that the “I/O” term is beginning to be used more broadly, and it is being used to sell products that don’t really represent what I/O is, or don’t represent it well. For example, training in I/O is no longer limited to PhD programs (which is fine), but a lot of Master’s programs have sprung up without the support structure such programs really need to ensure a high work placement rate (e.g. connections to local industry). So I anticipate some growing pains along with that growth.
Dr. Landers,
I assume work-life balance is probably studied a lot in I/O psychology, but what is the work-life balance like as a practicing I/O psychologist? Is it a 9-5 job or are I/O psychologists often conducting business calls during vacations or expected to work during vacations?
It varies quite widely. Internal consultants (e.g. if you worked within a single organization’s HR function) and government-sponsored workers (e.g. Army Research Institute) are more likely to have a 9-5. External consultant schedules tend to be a little more chaotic, but vary from firm to firm – I know people who work 40 hour weeks and others who work 100. As with most jobs requiring an advanced degree, it depends more on the position than the job itself.
Dr. Landers,
There are very little jobs seen in this fields; estimates in 1200s. How translatable is this degree? Can you find occupations not related or is finding an I/O titled occupation somewhat feasible? I’m asking does a masters in the application of the field give leeway for possibly doing HRM or only I/O jobs. I see good outlook for the career but very little positions in general.
Where did you see an estimate in the 1200s? That seems low to me, but at the Master’s level, could be accurate. But there aren’t very many I/O Master’s students, either.
I don’t think there are many jobs with the title “I/O” other than professor. Most I/Os go into either specialist positions within HR (e.g. assessment specialist, training designer, executive positions) or into a consultancy.
A Master’s degree as a terminal degree in I/O has not been around very long, and a lot of I/O Master’s programs are springing up. I honestly don’t know if there are jobs to support these students. The traditional degree is the Ph.D. But like I’ve mentioned before, most jobs in I/O, Master’s or PhD, come about through the connections your degree-granting institution has with industry – for example, most (but not all) ODU grads going into practice go to one of a relatively small group of consultancies, but given that, our placement rate for graduates is 100%.
Just about the worst thing you could do would be to attend a relatively unknown I/O Master’s program – especially an online program – without a job lined up already. It would be exceptionally difficult to land a position with that sort of education and without industry connections.
Sir,
Thank you for your very insightful posts, I have long had questions specific to IO psychology and appreciate your time.
My situation feels similar to Lucas’s, who is in the armed services and seeking higher education that will, hopefully, somehow dovetail academic achievement with practical real life experience to afford some level of market sustainability.
I am a full time commercial fisherman in Alaska currently getting my BS with a focus on Psychology from an accredited online university, GPA 4.0, and I plan on pursuing my Masters in Liberal Arts with a major in General (possibly Clinical) Psychology with the Harvard Extension School (my attempt to move closer to brick and mortar; as I will stop fishing for my educational interests the close of this year).
I would like to apply my professional maritime credentials (I am licensed by the US Coast Guard as a captain as well as an engineer), combine them with psychology, and work privately as a consultant while researching psychology as it pertains to the maritime industry, working with companies with a focus on employee and career management. This has led to an interest in I/O psychology which I hope is not misplaced or unfounded.
I feel this is a bit of a gray area to be asking advice about. On one hand I have professional contacts already, which is good, and I am not seeking an academic career, which might afford some flexibility. On the other hand, I do not know of much precedent of psychology specifically within the maritime industry and would appreciate your advice and insights as to how I might proceed, as I feel this would be an exciting applied field in which I am currently versed, though if it does lack a certain precedent this might place greater emphasis on holding a terminal research oriented degree.
Best,
William
First of all, you will find little to no value in getting a clinical Master’s degree. The entry-level for clinical work in psychology is the Ph.D. or Psy.D. – the Master’s will usually not even get you licensed. I don’t see any compelling career-oriented reason to get this degree. If you want to enter I/O, I’d get a Master’s in I/O straight from undergrad, although it will be more difficult to get into such a program with an online degree. I would not recommend attending an online Master’s program.
Second, your goals are extremely specific. Often, this means that you will be more difficult to employ, or that you will need to have extremely strong ability to explain how your developed skills will apply in the context you are seeking. I doubt there many jobs for “I/O Psychologist” in maritime management. However, there are likely to be many jobs that an I/O could fill within that field – e.g. training supervisor – but it would be up to you to figure out which jobs those were through your pre-existing network.
Third, “a focus on employee and career management” is a little vague. Employee management – i.e. making managerial and supervisory processes more effective – is a part of I/O. But career management is not at all. That more often falls under either Human Resources or Counseling with a workplace emphasis (not part of Psychology). I’d suggest thinking about what you see yourself doing on a day-to-day basis and let that drive your career choice (“I want to use psychology” is not enough by itself).
In terms of general recommendations, I’d suggest researching I/O Master’s and Ph.D. programs to identify some with connections to the industry that you are already in – then contact I/O area directors to explain your situation and ask for advice. If such programs don’t exist, then it will be all the more difficult later to find employment – but this would be a reality you should face head-on. If you want to be a private consultant, leveraging your industry network as clients, I’d also suggest pursuing a Ph.D.
Dr. Landers,
Why aren’t I/O psychologists refered to as psychologists when in the work environment? Do you think that may be a reason for the lack of knowledge among professionals about the profession? Also, is business psychology and I/O psychology the same thing? As an I/O psychologists, do you find the work you do rewarding?
We sometimes are. But I think the reason most people don’t call themselves I/O psychologists in the work environment is because of the most common response one would get: “What is that?” or “Why do we need a psychologist?” The most common response I get now when saying I’m an I/O Psychologist is, “Oh I know someone you’d love to analyze!” The public misconception about what most psychologists do means that when you’re trying to sell your services to a client, it’s more profitable and easier to say “I’m a consultant” versus “I’m a psychologist.”
Business psychology is mostly the same thing – there isn’t a field called “business psychology” per se, but I/O might be considered under that heading, along with Career Counseling and a couple of related fields. So I would say “business psychology” is a label that includes several distinct fields, including I/O Psychology, but does not represent a distinct field itself. The exception to this is “work psychology” or “work and organizational psychology” which are common European terms for I/O.
And I absolutely find the work I do rewarding – few social sciences have such broad practical impact on people’s lives. Time spent at work makes up about half of most people’s waking lives before retirement. What better place is there to help massive numbers of people? Better training helps people do their jobs better (more satisfying to them, more value to the organization), better selection creates a more pleasant workplace (better coworker relations, less process loss within the organization), better leadership is more inspiring, better teamwork, etc., etc. These are all processes that I/O psychologists can influence for the better through both research and practice.
Hello Dr. Landers.
I am really appreciate such an insightful thread and responses to questions in the field.
There are some doctoral programs out there particularly, Louisiana Tech that are more focused on applied rather than research. From what I gather on the website, the program is a fairly new program about 4-5 years old. But the school has a well established Master’s program, I think the only one in the state. Although it is a small department it appears to be a program run by all I/O psychologist.
It is a school that I am considering but I have my concerns because the program is new, and the school does not offer a tuition waver. Do you have any information on a program such as this one, and in your opinion would it be a good choice to submit an application to? I am considering their Masters program as well, I really don’t understand the difference in a Master’s program and a Phd program that is geared toward applied.
Your comments would be appreciated.
Thanks.
No matter what, a Ph.D. is a research degree. The difference is going to be the focus. In a more academically-inclined program (although there are not many of these these days, if any) is going to focus more on research as a means to answer unique and interesting questions about I/O. An applied program is going to focus on research as a means to solve practical organizational problems. Most “traditional” PhD programs in I/O these days are somewhere in the middle – for example, we have dedicated research methods classes and students complete 1st-year research projects, but I also train my students in techniques to evaluate fairness and bias of selection systems (and the theory behind these processes), evaluate tests actually used in the field, etc. In contrast, a Master’s program is going to be more nuts-and-bolts – while you might learn to evaluate bias in a selection system there as well, you are likely to get less of the theory behind WHY you would do this, which will also leave you less prepared to adapt as standards change until someone else trains you how to use the new techniques. With the PhD, you would be better prepared to understand why that change was necessary and be the teacher rather than the learner when such changes occurred.
As long as the department is APA-accredited (I/O is not accredited specifically), the program is probably fine. I don’t think there’s any harm applying to such a place in addition to anywhere else you apply – once you know everywhere you are accepted, you can choose the best option among that set.
And again, the absolute best thing you can do is track down some recent graduates of the program and see what kinds of jobs they have. First-hand information is better than anything else.
Dr. Landers,
The more research I do, the more it seems to me that the profession is business focused (profit focused). Where does the psychology come into play? Are there positions held by I/O psychologists that may be more employee focused? I see a lot of graduate students that have interests in subjects such as diversity or work-life balance, but I do not see any relationships between those subjects with the actual I/O job descriptions I have been reading in regards to employment. I can’t see myself working for a company like Walmart as a psychologist seeing as their employees are not treated or paid well. I don’t know if I explained myself well enough for you. There are just things I’ve been thinking about.
Thanks!
The profit-focused side is still psychology – for example, understanding what human characteristics best predict job performance – but you seem to want more of the warm fuzzy side. We’d call that “more of an interest in the O-side than the I-side of I/O.” That’s a matter of job title. If you want the more “employee focused” jobs, you want jobs with titles involving things like “organizational development.” However, there do tend to be more jobs on the I side.
I will add though that the only way to improve the lives of those tens of thousands of employees at Walmart would be to work at Walmart and try to change things from the inside. There are many I/O’s trying to do just that – but it is a battle to convince upper management that such moves would ultimately be in the best interests of the company without obvious ROI. If you work in a company where employees are already happy and productive, what’s the point of your job?